Real Estate Playbook: Exploring Investment Strategies for Savvy Investors

Hello and Welcome to the Property and Lending Show 

Today Mark Kilada, Fadi Youssef, Peter Georgi and myself Kyrillos Mansour (KM) discussed the different strategies that most investors will consider and follow throughout their journey

The main 4 discussed were
1. Buy and Hold - Never Sell
2. Buy and Hold - Sell some down to pay debt
3. Renovations and Flipping
4. Development and Subdivisions 

If you would like to get in contact with Mark, Fadi, Peter or KM you can find them here:
Mark@powerloans.com.au

Fadi@powerloans.com.au

Peter@powerloans.com.au

hello@firstbrick.com.au

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Transcript

KM: 0:14

Hello, and welcome back to the Property and Lending show. Joined with me, as always, Peter Georgie, head of Asset Finance, Sadie Yusuf, ahead of everything at Power Loans, and Mark Collada, who has decided I'm so excited. I'm so excited for this week because Markalada has decided he's going to bring a personality to the show. So we're going to go straight to Mark. Mark, how you been? How's your week? Tell us about how you feel.

Mark Kilada: 0:41

Big week as normal. Every week is a big week here at Power Loan. So always exciting. Feeling amazing back at the gym, not that anyone realized. So that's obviously paying off and worth the time. Property is going well and clients all moving forward, can't complain.

KM: 1:03

That's amazing. I'm not going to push it because we got to babysip you into this personality thing. I really appreciate it. Today we're going to discuss something that a lot of people ask us, I guess, regarding strategies. Strategies, exit strategies, investing strategies, just strategies in general. And there are so many strategies, actually, so many strategies and substrategies. But we're going to focus on four today and they are, I guess, buy and hold, flipping properties, developments and buy and hold with a sale at the end. So I think a couple of us are going to discuss a strategy or two. Then we'll see if there's any questions that come up and hopefully it'll help our listeners figure out their strategy. Let's speak about I guess we'll go straight into maybe development, development, subdivision, things like that. We'll let Fetty hit this one and then we'll go from there.

Fadi Youssef: 2:08

So I'm hitting the subdivision point. Yes.

KM: 2:15

Sorry, I was muted.

Fadi Youssef: 2:17

That's all right. In regards to purchasing property and subdividing and building a duplex, in some scenarios you can find customers that are looking to purchase and build free duplexes or terrace homes that we call them these days. In regards to the subdivision, most lenders will allow you to build up to three dwellings on the One title and they're on subdividing it. But once we move from above three securities on the one title, that's where it becomes more of a commercial product. And then lenders would need that subdivision to be done with council and within the lender prior to construction. So just recently we had a scenario like this where a customer is building two lots of duplexes on the one land before he start the second lot of Duplexes, which will go up to four securities, he had to subdivide it, get the bank's mission first to subdivide it. Then it goes to council. So Vesinary Gus is starting the construction, but up to three homes or three securities on the One Title can still be done as a normal residential construction loan. But once we hit above the three terrace or duplexes on one title, that's when we're looking more for commercial or the smarter move and the cheaper move. We'll be looking at subdividing that land prior to construction. Have I covered that or is there.

KM: 3:33

Other questions, I guess, to start off with, what kind of strategy is this for someone? Would you typically see first timers going down this route? Is this for more experienced investors? What kind of people are using this strategy to invest?

Fadi Youssef: 3:57

So there's a few scenarios when clients come approach us. So look at scenario number one, where it's like maybe a mummy and daddy project. They purchase land, an old house on a huge land, they knock it down and build a duplex. They live in one property themselves and they rent out the other property. Have I said something wrong?

KM: 4:18

Sorry. Mummy and daddy really got me.

Fadi Youssef: 4:21

The mummy and daddy projects. Yeah. So people that pretty much purchasing the property and building it themselves, or getting a builder along to build it themselves and they're managing it, saves a lot of costs as well. But in regards to subdividing that land, they wouldn't have to look at doing that because they're going to be living in one of the securities and renting the other security out when you're coming to sell those properties. If you're looking to purchase, build a duplex, stay in one, sell the other one, or sell both of them, you're better off subdividing both of them. So you can sell each security separately, obviously. And obviously brings up the value of each property up instead of just selling it as the whole one unit. And you're not going to be able to sell as one unit, both of them, unless they're subdivided. Anyway, in regards to building and selling, you can do that at the end of construction. It's not something you need to be doing at the beginning. If you're building a duplex or up to three, you don't have to subdivide the properties at the beginning. You can do that all after construction as well. So there's a few rules around. It all comes down to the scenario that the customers are looking for.

KM: 5:28

Yeah. Do you find that this is a higher risk investment or is it quite a low risk investment? Obviously, we don't recommend or anything like that on this program. But as a first time investor, is this something that someone should look at or not really, man.

Fadi Youssef: 5:51

We've seen a lot of scenarios where we've had the first time investors and we've had seasonal investors that have done these sort of projects. And we're seeing a lot of them recently as well, especially living in Sydney. If we look at, I guess, Padstow a couple of years ago, padstow didn't look the way it did these days as well, where a duplex is coming up and you're finding people getting into these projects. Mainly they're doing, obviously, their homework. They've picked the builder, they've tried to go get through council. It's a long process. It can take up to, from what we understand, twelve to 18 months just depends on how it's going to go through accounts and get that all approved. I couldn't tell you, man, if you can take the headache, obviously building is no walk in the park as well and we hear stories from customers, but some of them are like, the headache is worth it, but it really comes down to what firstbrig recommends if it's going to be working out better for them or not.

KM: 6:42

Peter, Mark, any questions regarding that.

Mark Kilada: 6:47

I'm just going to add so it's definitely for the active investor, especially nowadays with construction costs moving quickly, labor costs moving quickly as well. It's a process where the price is very great, especially at the beginning in 18 months time, let alone your three months, who knows how much the same tiles that you're buying today are going to be worth. So definitely for the active investor, definitely for someone that has a cash buffer. I always tell customers doing construction, you don't have a cash buffer and then you need funds towards the end of the build and the market shifted and come down, it's going to be difficult to get. So definitely need a cash buffer to make sure they can complete the project. And one more point about that as well is once a bank on your title, because they move and you're missing construction, you cannot move that another lender, you're midway and you can't get any more money from bank. You need to have cash buffer. There private lender, but that gets messy and very active.

Fadi Youssef: 8:00

And keep in regards to going for these sort of am I muted? I was just about to say. So keep in mind, there's different products and different lenders for certain people coming through. So for example, for a builder that's coming through, he's looking to basically got experience in building. He's looking to purchase, build and sell. They would usually go down more of a development kind of loan where they're just purchasing the projects. They do the numbers and see if there's going to be a profit on that project as well. Of a minimum 15% with most lenders, they'll allow them to do that project as long as we can present them with those numbers to do that again to the mummy and daddy investors. Basically, people that are purchasing these properties and building themselves and renting it out or selling it as well, they have the option of going through the residential route in regards to purchasing that property and using rental income. So that's another thing as well. You're able to use future rental income, proposed rental income from when the securities are complete. You're able to use that rental income towards your servicing as well, which obviously helps out a lot. And keep in mind, I think one of the questions are always coming up in regards to subdivisions or purchasing a property and building a duplex on it as well is the LVR. So they're worried. Customers are worried when they purchase the land, are they going to to have put another deposit towards the construction later on? We like to think. And from what we've seen so far, the scenario, the answer to that scenario is no. Because when you're purchasing a property, whether you're purchasing a 10% deposit, 20% deposit, they're going to value that final build on the finished product. So you're hoping, in any case, any reason why you're going into this project is the project is going to be worth a lot more than what your loan is going to be anyway, and you're hoping to be under the 80%, which we find in most scenarios. So they're evaluating it on the finished product and they're using the finished product's rental income.

KM: 9:53

I just like to add, it's a good point. Mark said this is an active investment, not a passive investment, so you definitely will be hands on. Something that I do notice a lot with development projects or clients, especially your mum and dad investors or mum and dad developers, is that they actually don't take into account all the costs. And I was discussing this with Peter actually today, where people don't take into account all the costs involved. A lot of people will look at, say, a block of land, say it's a million dollars. Even construction cost on a duplex, for example, could be, say, 1.2 million. So it's 2.2. And they will think, okay, if I sell it for 1.3 each, that's 2.6. We've made 200 grand profit. It's really not the scenario because you actually haven't taken into account Stem duty, you haven't taken into account your holding costs. So interest that you're paying over the time that it takes to build and obviously you're not receiving any rental income during that period as well. So it is costing you money there as well, which you have to take into account and then obviously builders fees. But again, the other thing is you have to sell the properties to actually profit. In most of the scenarios, some people will hold, but in this scenario, I guess we're talking about a sale. So you got to take into account agent fees. So after you've taken all of that out, a vendor is also capital gains tax. You're often not left with too much, especially if you're not the builder yourself. If you are a builder, it's a bit different because you're obviously getting cost, price on a lot of on materials. You don't have to pay a builder because you're doing yourself. So it's a bit different. But for mom and dad investors or mum and dad developers, they don't take into account a lot of these costs. The final cost as well that people don't take into account, which is very important, I think, is usually people who do this want to do it again. If you're going to do it again, you have to take into account your reentry costs. So again, Stem duty to buy into something else. So after you've taken into account, your initial Stem duty, your agent fees, your holding costs, capital gains tax, that potential 200 grand you think you've made might actually become 30 grand or 40 grand. And then when you buy something else, you got to pay Stem duty again, which actually might be that more than that 30, 40 grand. If you're talking about a million dollar block of land, you actually end the negative. So people don't really take into account all the costs. And I just wanted to put that point that it is very important to take into account all costs, especially for mom and dad developers.

Mark Kilada: 12:21

I was just going to add one more thing. So Eddie was mentioning before that sometimes it is a very common question where you put a deposit down 1020, 15%, whatever you can do for the initial land, and then when you come to do the build, a common question is, how much do I need to contribute? Again, given that they want to contribute the minimum, if you're not subdividing the land, yeah, the valuation is probably going to be okay. And they do it based on the completed value, based on the architectural, the floor plans and all the renders and everything like that. But when you're going to subdivide the banks, vast majority of the banks, all the major banks, do this thing called a one line valuation, which is where they value the property, despite it going to be subdivided in the future because it's not subdivided now. They value the duplex that you're building, for example, as if it's going to be sold to one person on one contract and it's going to stay on one title. What that leads to is a lower completed value than expected. And the way that hinders the borrowing is because the maximum LVR, or the maximum lending against the property value that you can do has now minimized because the property value is lower than expected. And that's really, unfortunately, not something we find out until after you get the DA approval and all the tech drawings, the architectural drawings, and the building contract and everything. After you go through all of that, that's when we find out the valuation, which is a bit frustrating, but it is something that comes up.

KM: 13:50

Question does it make a difference, loan wise, if the person who's purchasing land and building, does it make a difference if they're the developer?

Mark Kilada: 14:00

Loan wise, yeah. So if you're a builder and you're going to do your own project, from the bank's point of view, your business, which is you've made your money building for other people, most of your resources now from the bank's point of view, is going to be spent on your project. So your income, which is coming from your business, for example, is probably going to dry up. So what the banks do is they put a maximum LVR, which is going to be lower for builders that are going to do their own property. They're called owner builders. Those are the types of loans that we're talking about. Now, there are banks that we go to specifically in this scenario and that's why it's important to go to a broker with like we have 40 plus banks for that reason. We have a bank perfect for everyone scenario. So we have banks, sorry, that love builders and that's primarily their demographic. So in a situation like that, we would go to that bank. They are a little bit more pricey, but they do let you borrow with a much higher LVR than if you just went to one of the big four.

Fadi Youssef: 15:00

And keep in mind as well, in that scenario, that question that Pete was asking, if you're looking to start a project like this, and we've got a lot of first time investors in these sort of projects. There are lenders out of the top four. Second or third tier lenders will allow you to do these sort of projects as long as we provide the products sorry, documentation that request for as well. So if you're not able to go through those lenders, like Mark said, we've got over 40 lenders that's going to.

Mark Kilada: 15:26

Find.

Fadi Youssef: 15:29

A result for you, basically. Yeah.

KM: 15:35

Cool. I think that's a good wrap on developments and subdivision. There's definitely risks involved and it is more of an active investment rather than a passive. So if you are considering, definitely speak to your brokers, speak to mortgage, speak to power loans and really crunch numbers properly before you jump into something. Because whilst it can be very lucrative if you haven't run the numbers properly, it can actually cost you money rather than make you money. We might segue into a similar topic, similar strategy regarding renovations and flipping. So I'll let Mark take the lead on this one.

Mark Kilada: 16:16

So, with this strategy, it's really common. You hear people talking about manufacturing growth. So the way that happens a lot of the time, and I particularly don't mind this strategy, again, it is more active than buying a property and just letting it grow over 30 years and eventually paying down the debt till it's zero and you're retired. Definitely more active than that, but less active than the development purchase. So with a property like this, ideally you're looking for a property in an area that's undervalued. There might be the ugly duckling, it'll be the property that doesn't look the nicest to look at, but it's on a very valuable land. It's a good size, good floor plan, and there's no major structural changes that need to happen for the property. We're talking just small things. So you might need to redo the cabinetry in the kitchen, you might need to redo the bathroom, the tiles, the flooring, the lighting, that's about it. And a bit of landscaping, if that's the sort of thing that you're keen to do, which is obviously more passive, more active than buying just the property and holding it, there is great potential. Because if you do buy the right property at the right price and do this renovation, which again, is not going to be that big out of pocket compared to knocking down a rebuilding, of course it could work out very lucrative, but definitely is more active than your normal buy and hold purchases that we see so common. But great potential here to manufacture growth. The only other thing I was going to say as well is the other way that people manufacture growth on their property that I can think of is that sometimes they'll add a granny flat at the back that will need a construction loan because you're adding a whole new structure. But that is another way you can manufacture that growth. You're going to increase your rental yield instantly because the total rental on the property will go up as well as obviously the total funds into the property because now you've not only bought the property, but built a granite flat as well. So those are the two ways.

KM: 18:12

Yeah. Regarding lending on a renovation project, are you informing the bank prior to a purchase that you're looking at doing a flip or is it more so you just get the loan to purchase the property and then you're spending your own cash, owners equity on the renovation. How does that work?

Mark Kilada: 18:33

Yeah, I literally just got this question two days ago. So unless you're doing structural changes to the actual house or whatever you're buying, we don't need to do a construction loan. With a construction loan, they'll do a valuation based on the completed value, based on the DA approved and the drawings and everything that we said. If you're just doing cosmetic renovations, a lot of the time you do it out of pocket, unless you're going to hold the property, wait for it to grow, and then extract that equity with the purposes of renovation, which is fine, but there needs to be equity there to be able to take out. So if you buy a property today for a million dollars and you're putting down, let's say, 20% deposit, and you're not a medico or accountant, lawyer or any of the special occupations that have the LMI waivers up to 90%, you can take out up to 80% of the property value. If you've only put a 20% deposit down, you're already at the threshold. So you're going to need to wait till the property grows in value so you can take out more. Or if you have the cash to do the project yourself, that can also happen. These tend not to be too expensive as well. It depends, obviously, on how much you're doing. But I have a customer that took out 50 grand to redo his bathrooms, for example. So you might have that sitting in your account and you would put it into your figures as well so that you're not using all your cash on the purchase and then figure out that you get stuck later on. So definitely something to bring up with your broker at the time of the pre approval initially. So you understand, can I actually complete this.

KM: 20:09

With renovations? I know because we do help clients on our end as well find properties to renovate. I think a very important point in terms of building that strategy and ensuring you get the right property is finding you have to understand the suburb profile as well. There's a term called over capitalization or overcapitalizing, and it's very common that people will purchase a property in a location and then do this extensive renovation and the property looks immaculate. It's the most beautiful thing you ever see, but the location doesn't warrant a property at that quality or the quality of finishes, for example. And that property may have gone from a valuation of one to 1.5 in any other location and you spent 400 grand on a renovation, but in the location you've purchased in, because it doesn't warrant a property at that level, you actually can't sell it for that price. So I think very important with renovations and flipping is very important to get the location right. And like Mark said, you're really buying the Ugliest duckling on that street and bringing it up to standard for that street. You don't necessarily have to make it the most beautiful thing, you just have to make it in line with that suburb. So often it's more about picking a really undermarket value property that needs some work and you're bringing it to level. Because I've seen accountless times where people do over capitalize and they'll spend 200 grand on a renovation, but because of the location they've purchased in or the initial purchase price, they can actually only resell it for an extra 100 grand or 150. And again, you've lost money. So similar to development, when you're doing these active investments, it's very important to take into account a lot of factors and ensure you do your numbers properly. Typically, bathrooms, kitchens get you the biggest return on investment and a paint and then other little things are kind of just to clean up. But really you're looking for a three to one return on investment to keep a safe buffer as well. Not sure if you guys have any other points regarding that just in regards.

Fadi Youssef: 22:25

To the flipping, in regards to lending. So are we discussing where a customer comes through purchases property that are run down like you guys are discussing renovate them and sell them and sell them within how many months, how many years? Because again, if we go back to discuss fees and costs involved, this is something that's to be taken to account. Regards to capital gain tax, we're purchasing an investment and selling within the year. I can't even imagine what the capital gain tax will be on that as well. Is the renovation going to be worth doing? And it's going to take into account that amount as well? Or is it better to purchase these properties like you said, renovate the kitchens, bathrooms, give it a pain and rent to at a higher price? Well, I guess that's maybe another strategy.

KM: 23:11

Yeah, I guess. I mean, similar to the developments, you have to take into account all costs involved. And if you are looking at flipping, so selling, you have to take into account your capital gains tax, your exit costs, even reentry costs, because the idea is again to do another one and another one. So you have to take into account all these costs. Obviously, if you hold the property for twelve months, there is CGT exemptions applicable in cases. So you really do have to take into account and if you are planning on holding twelve months, then you have to take into account, okay, well, if the renovation only took three months, what are we doing for the next nine months? Are we renting it out? That income is now taxable, so there is a lot of consideration, but again can be very lucrative. But it's very important not to over capitalize and really run the numbers and find comparable sales to ensure that you're running these numbers properly. If there's no other questions or points on that, we'll move on to the last two strategies which are very similar. The only difference is right at the end, and this is a buy and hold strategy, which is a passive strategy. So buy and hold is probably the most common strategy in investing in real estate in Australia. And in a nutshell, you're buying properties and you're holding them, then your loan term is usually 30 years. And by the end of that 30 years you've paid off the debt and you have passive income via the rent coming through that property. Now the idea is you accumulate a couple of properties. You can use equity or cash to continue to purchase more properties. Obviously you need to be able to service. And this is a very big part of what we do. That's why we always tell our clients to use power learners, because you guys actually run serviceability on future potential purchases. So we can actually build a strategy and we say if we purchase this property X amount and it rents for this much in five years time, in three years time, can we purchase another one? I always get you guys to do those numbers and that's how we can ensure that we don't run into serviceability issues. And that's why cash flow is such a consideration these days. But the idea is you're just accumulating properties, you're holding them, you're not selling, and you're increasing your net assets, your net worth, and then you get to a point where you've either sold all the properties sorry, you've paid off all your debt, and then you're just living rent. You're living debt free and you're receiving the rent and that becomes your income. So if you had, for example, two and a half million dollars in paid off assets, which could be five properties at 500 grand, four properties at a little bit more on a typical 5% yield, that would be $100,000 after maintenance and property management fees. And whatnot passive income where you're not doing anything, you're not working, and every year you're receiving an income of $100,000. That is, I guess, the most common scenario that people look to achieve. There is another side to this as well, where people do buy and hold, where they don't sell, and it's a little bit more risky or it's a bit more aggressive. Where they live off equity. And how they do that is they have a portfolio of, say again, two and a half million dollars. And then if the property goes up, if the total portfolio goes up, say 5%, that's 125 grand a year, and they actually extract that equity and live off the equity. The obvious problem with this is that you're increasing your debt again, with no real methods of paying it off, because at this point you're essentially probably retired. But people do do this. It is not uncommon, but these people usually have quite big cash reserves and whatnot in offset accounts to negate the interest that you're paying. The other scenario, which is the buy and hold of and sell a couple of properties, is essentially the exact same thing where you've purchased quite a few properties, or four or five properties. It doesn't need to be ten properties. Usually three to five properties is enough. You've held them for quite a long time. You might have actually purchased one extra property with the purpose of selling that property later. And then in 10, 15, 20 years, one of the properties that has the most amount of capital gains is then sold and then the profits from that sale is used to pay off the debt on the other properties. And then essentially it's the same scenario where you're holding onto these properties and just receiving the rent. It is the most passive way to invest. It is the most common. There's a lot less headache involved in comparison to development and renovations. But of course, as well, it is the slowest with developments, renovations, subdivisions, it's active. So you are manufacturing growth or you are manufacturing profit by doing work. And this is more so it's something in the background. You don't think about it. You just let time do its thing. Increase the value of the property, buying in the right locations, getting the right tenants, even letting time do its thing. Those are the most common strategies. They have their benefits, they also have their cons, like anything else. Usually first time investors will start with this and then as they build their portfolio, they may venture into developments or may venture into renovations, but they usually have some sort of asset base. This strategy also works with commercial properties, so it doesn't. Have to be a strict resi portfolio. It can be a mix of resi and commercial, but in a nutshell, you're buying properties, you're holding them, paying them down, either through your salary, your income, paying down debt over time, or selling of a property or two at the end or after 20 years where there's quite a lot of growth and using those funds to pay down the debt. Is there any questions regarding that strategy?

Fadi Youssef: 29:09

Man, I love the strategy that you were discussing at the end there in regards to purchasing term properties and hopefully one of those properties that you're purchasing to be sold later on. I think it's great to highlight as well, it's more of a long term game. Like you said, it's all about time. But I'm guessing obviously we're not accountants, but I'm guessing as well. At the same time, they're benefiting through tax benefits as well. Having that buffer against their normal income, their Pi D, they're saving on tax benefits there as well. In regards, are you seeing a lot of customers as well? Purchasing under their super, under their personal names, under a trust, a unit trust as well? So I'm guessing if you have the right account you see the right account can also save you costs through those sort of setups as well, those sort of structures. But what have you been saying in regards to that purchasing customers? Purchasing?

KM: 29:55

Yeah, I think typically people do purchase their first investment property in their own name, whether that's lack of knowledge or to be honest, it is the easiest and cheapest way to purchase property. Obviously once you start buying in trusts and whatnot there are other costs involved so it can become pricey. So usually people don't do that on their first property. Not it's right or wrong, it's just what people usually do. But we do see people purchasing in trusts usually as well for serviceability, to help with serviceability which you guys will be able to talk about a lot more than I can. But yeah, super is definitely something. SMSFs are something that is coming through a lot recently where people have money in their super and they may not be able to service under their own name or their trust or whatnot or may not have the deposits. Involved or required for purchasing in their own name. But they've got this rather large amount of funds in their super just sitting there, which they can't touch anyway. And so they decide, hey, let's invest in property because we can't touch it. And because it's a passive investment and it's a long term thing, well, we might as well invest it in real estate and then let time do its thing again. We can't touch it till we retire. So we are seeing a lot of people purchase in their SMSFs for this strategy. A buy and hold strategy which obviously once their age requirements are met then they can take control and do what they want with it. As.

Fadi Youssef: 31:29

So keep in mind as well, like you discussed before, also under the SMSF you can purchase commercial property whether it's an investment commercial property and the biggest kicker here you can also purchase under SMSF a commercial property that's owner occupied. For example, you can be running your business out of that commercial site as well, that you can be using your SMSF to purchase through as well. So I think SMSF, like you said, we've been seeing a lot of people coming through and utilizing that tool, something that I learned personally through our customers as well in regards to how they're purchasing under the trust. It's basically a long term game like we discussed before.

KM: 32:06

Yeah. And if anyone is curious about their SMSF and how they can purchase through it or any questions like that, reach out to any of us and we'll be able to direct you to a top financial planner that can assist with SMSFs and guide you with that as well. Was there any questions or comments though regarding the buy and hold strategies? Nope. I'm very good at explaining don't. If there's nothing else to add, it's a pretty good very, very direct to the point. I think we covered a lot. Peter's got to go, so we're going to cut this one short on good time. But as always, thank you so much to everyone that listens and tunes in. I think next week we are planning to have a dedicated asset finance episode. So if you do have finance questions, send them into Peter, Mark Ferri, myself, comment on our Instagram pages or wherever, just email us, let us know and we'll ensure that Peter gets grilled next week and has all the answers for you. But if there's nothing else to add, thank you as always and stay tuned for next time. Cheers.